This is going to be fun. We're going to break all the Thanksgiving rules. We're going to talk about religion and politics together. It's going to be great. Just show of hands. How many of you. It's like the topic of religion or politics is a contentious one in my family. Okay. Look around. You're not okay. You're not alone. That's a common thing. Just another curious question. How many of you got water in your basement? Okay, so nobody's irritable tonight. We're all just come cheerful, ready to engage in a complicated topic. Let me tell you what's going to happen. I'm going to talk for a while. Try to help us have some lenses to look through and consider the topic of religion and politics. Um, and then, uh, time permitting, we're going to pray, um, and maybe answer some questions. I'm not going to pretend to be, uh, an expert on American history or even this topic of political theology. But I'll try to be a good pastor to you. And if I don't know the answer to that question, I'll say, I don't know. Maybe we'll research that and get back to you. Um, but let me kind of temper some expectations. Uh, pretty much everybody will probably leave here disappointed. Uh, so if we know that right off the bat of like, well, he didn't say this or he said that, and it's just kind of like, if we just know, like everybody's going to be disappointed, then we can be united in that. In fact, everybody can be united in their disappointment towards me. We'll just kind of bond the church together in this. But we're going to we're going to go after it because we do want to make disciples. And part of making disciples is helping people think biblically about all things and all of life. And politics is coming at us. And there's a lot of voices. And we want to try to think, uh, biblical about it. Politics has become an obsessive aspect in American life, from twenty four hour news sources to podcasts to commentators and talking heads constantly. The amount of political information that we take in is is a lot. It's constant and it seems like politics can be ultimate. I don't want to undermine the importance of it. Hopefully that comes through tonight. It's an important thing and that's why we're talking about it. But I also don't want to, um, make it more important than it is. And sometimes I wonder in the sermon on the Mount when Jesus says, hey, you can't serve two masters, right? You're going to love the one or hate the other. You can't love both God and what does he say? Money. It's like, that's weird because money in and of itself is not wrong. In fact, you can use money to do a lot of good and godly things. But yet in a culture of materialism, it's like money can start to be looked at as this is the answer to my problems. This is my security. This is my hope. This is how I have value. And I wonder if that same kind of critique could be said of politics today. Like you can't serve both God and politics. Like, wait a minute. Politics isn't wrong. Just like money's not wrong. Like politics can be used to do a lot of good things. But I wonder sometimes in our climate of so much intensity around politics, it's become something like, well, that's my hope and that's what's going to fix my problems. And that's what like, that's this competing thing where we put more hope in politics than, than God. Um, it becomes a competing passion or a competing savior. And for us right now, in this cultural moment, it's hot. Um, there's a lot of contention around it. Uh, and along with that, and I would even add contributing to it, there has been an evolving attitude towards religion in America. Um, there's been a growing secularization and you can see that even in major religious institutions that are no longer faithful to a biblical orthodoxy like Harvard and Princeton, like those were, you know, pillar seminaries in the day. And they've drifted far from Orthodox doctrine. But just even beyond that, just in our society, there's a cultural drift to greater secularization of our culture. And it can seem like pace is picking up in that area. Now, there can be some debate on whether or not America was a Christian nation at its founding, kind of depending on how you define that. But there should be no debate that there was a favorable view of the importance of religion, particularly Protestant Christianity, at the founding of America in, uh, John Adams kind of has that famous quote of like our form of government, I'm going to murder the quote, but basically the gist of it is like our form of government was built for a moral and religious people. Like, uh, it's no good to any other. So he's saying like, we didn't like put it into law, but but the way it's set up is meant for a society that has morals from religion and values religion. But, um, that has drifted and there was a freedom of religion for the promotion of religion, the value of religion that people came wanting to practice religion freely, but that has involved a more into a freedom from religion, like religion is seen as undermining or not helpful, uh, in our society, or at least the growing secularization of it. Um, and for those of us over forty, I'm just guessing. I'm throwing a number out there. Maybe you're under forty and you feel it too. It can feel like the secular secularization of our culture is like, wow. Like we just went to another level. Um. Even when you look at, uh, how more moral issues have become front and center in politics, uh, and the drastic change even of those moral issues in a rather short period of time. Uh, Barack Obama, when he ran for president for his first run, ran on traditional marriage. This is the leading Democratic candidate, uh, that promoted the view of traditional marriage. Uh, when Bill Clinton was president and the issue of abortion, the motto even from the Democratic Party was abortion should be safe, legal, and rare. And now there's more of a champion of pride of homosexuality in our culture, a proudness behind abortion. And it's like, that wasn't that long ago. Is everybody uncomfortable yet? Are we still okay? Okay, that wasn't that long ago. And you kind of feel this drift even to like, I have a daughter in high school. In public school, we're not that far into the year. It's still September, and she's already been taught a heretical view of the Trinity and told that Jesus never wanted to start Christianity in world history class. So there is just a sense of like, okay, there's a change, or there's a worldview that's kind of crept in and undermined some things of have we always thought that way? Is this different? Is things changing? I think people feel that. And I would argue that secularism in itself is a religion or the religion of our culture is secular humanism. Um, it's certainly a competing worldview. And I would say that it's a worldview that's been pretty successful in making disciples. It's been pretty successful at spreading that worldview and championing it and increasing it in our society. And along with that, and I would say is contributing to that. In the last fifty years, I think churches have largely worked to stay out of politics. Uh, perhaps motivated by a purity. Like we don't want to attach the gospel to any political party and kind of cloud the centrality of our real mission. Maybe motivated by evangelism. Like we're not trying to trip people up through politics. We want them to be offended by the cross and nothing else. Uh, perhaps by fear. Like it's contentious and we're not wanting to say hard things. Um, and in the absence of that, secularism has thrived. And it has brought quite a culture war, not just around morality, but also national identity. Like who are we? Who are we as a nation? Who are we as a country? Are we one nation under God, or does that not fit quite as much as is the idea of God and the recognition of God and being under God still, a part of who we are as a nation? Is Christianity and Christian values an important part of our national identity or not? Should they be? If so, how? To what extent? What does that look like? And here's what it comes down to. What should be the relationship between religion and government? Um, now, now, the fancy term for this is political theology. Well, how do we think theologically about politics in the way that God has set things up? Abraham Kuyper, uh, famous theologian who was also involved in politics, um, famously, you know, talked about sphere sovereignty, that there's different spheres that God has created, the government, he's created the church, he's created the family, but God is sovereign over all of those. Everything is under God. But how do you relate? How do those different spheres relate to each other? Maybe you've heard theologians talk about two kingdoms, like you have the kingdom of God and the kingdom of earth. And. And they're two separate. But someday will be one. Or you've heard Christians talk about dual citizenship. You know, I'm a citizen of heaven, but I'm also a citizen of America. And how do those two relate? How am I supposed to be a good citizen of America as a citizen of heaven? And it really comes down to what's the relationship between religion, the church and the government. And I want to try the best I can to kind of cut through the noise because there's a lot of noise. And maybe you've come in with a lot of opinions and passions, but we're going to get a little classroom. Um, and I want us to give us like, uh, a perspective to look at how different people look at the issue of relationship between church and state. Um, and give some thoughts, uh, I'll tell you where we land, uh, as a church, um, some statements, but mostly I want to get to some pastoral council towards the end. And I'm not going to tell you what to think, but I'm going to hopefully help you how to think and think of some things to consider and hopefully provide some level of humility because there are some good, godly, biblically smart people who come to some different conclusions, even within the same camp where some tensions can lie. So if we can even walk out of here with like, hey, I might think this and somebody else would think this and this isn't an issue to divide over, um, an issue to discuss an issue, to have a robust discussion, but not something to divide over. So we're going to look at seven different perspectives. Um, this is put out by a guy named Andy Nestell. He's a pastor up in the Twin Cities. I think it's really helpful, kind of this taxonomy of different perspectives between the relationship between religion and the state. And you can quietly or loudly, depending on how ambitious you are, place yourself on this spectrum. You might want to hear all the spectrums before you put it in there. Um, it's not a perfect thing, but it is helpful to kind of guide us and help us think through this. So I'm going to go through them and we'll go back and take a closer look at, um, the two that are probably most prevalent in this room that I would guess. Uh, but let's look at all seven and then then we'll go back. Sound good? All right. If you take some notes, uh, we'll try to put some things on the screen. Um, but here's the first one. Secular suppression. Secular suppression. This is the view that God and religion should be totally separate with government being secular, suppressing religion. The government protects itself from being contaminated by religion. Uh, which is seen as bad or undermining the authority of the state. And if God is not recognized, whose God the state. So the state then becomes the highest authority. That's why religion is kind of seen as a threat to that. Um, some examples of this would be Karl Marx, uh, modern day North Korea, where the state kind of suppresses religion. And we can illustrate it this way. So you have governments big, and then they kind of have a line next to that circle. Suppressing religion. Anybody want to place themselves there? No. Okay. We'll move on. Uh, number two, religious separation. Government and religion should be totally separate in the sense that religious people are not wanting to get involved in government. It's the religious people that are saying, no, we're not. We're not going to get involved in that. They are distinct spheres that must not overlap. Uh, and Christians should not entangle themselves in worldly government like a good soldier does not get involved in civilian affairs. Uh, and traditionally, people that would fall in this are like Anabaptist, uh, traditional Mennonites, Amish. But it's the religious people saying, no, we don't want anything to do with government. And this could be illustrated this way. So it's religion that's more drawing the line and trying to stay out of government. So that's religious separation, and we want to put themselves there. Oh. Amish in the room tonight. All right. Number three. Religious neutrality. Government must be religiously neutral. This is the government not wanting religious influence. Kind of stay in your lane. We have our lane. You have your lane. Uh, there should be no promotion of religion in general. But perhaps promotion of a civil religion. Now, when I say civil religion, I don't mean like worship of Caesar, but more like, uh, promoting universal values that unite a people. Freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of religion. Just stay in your lane. Right to bear arms. Um, so there's this religious neutrality. Um, classic liberalism would be here. Libertarianism would be here. It's like, hey, just stay out of our way. You do your thing, we do our thing. But it's, it's separate and it should be separate and we can illustrate it this way. The line should probably be in the middle, but you guys get it. All right. Anybody want to put themselves there? No. It's going to heat up soon. There we go. All right. Number four, religious influence. This is the view that government should not promote any one religion, but should appreciate religion and be open to its influence within limits. Separate but distinct and respected roles. So the church looks at the government and it's like, we appreciate the government, you know, reward good, punish evil, take care of criminals, build roads, do your thing. And then the government respects the church. Hey, continue to care for the poor and preach the gospel and do your thing. Um, but the church is not the government, and the government is not the church, but there is a mutual respect between the two, and the church should be intentionally influential towards the government. Uh, some theologians have said the church is the conscience of the state. It should preach against it where it is out and should applaud it where it is. Good. Um, but it is influential or intentionally influential towards the government. They would say the church should influence but not institutionalize. So stay distant, speak into but do not institutionalize that traditionally Baptist. Uh, the sixteen eighty nine Confessions of Baptists would would be in this camp Congregationalists, Quakers. And we can illustrate it this way. So the religion is influencing the government. Anybody want to put themselves in that camp publicly right now? Okay. Yeah, we got some. We got some participation. It's going to get spicy. We're going to separate the room later and we're going to do tug of war. It's going to be epic. All right. Uh, number five, Christian government. Now, I'm kind of, uh, specifying not just religion here, but specifying for our sake Christian government. And this is the view that government and religion, specifically Christianity, overlap. Uh, that they are seen as two God ordained institutions that have distinct but overlapping jurisdictions and should work together for the flourishing of society and people. Government may institute Christianity to some degree. Uh, this could range from an acknowledgment of God in the Constitution to promoting laws derived from Scripture to religious test for serving in office. There's kind of a a spectrum of this. And that's where it kind of gets complicated. On to what extent, uh, many of the reformers would find themselves in this camp, although you can even debate that various colonies and states at the time of America's founding could be in this camp. Um, a lot of times what gets labeled in this camp as Christian nationalist. How many have heard of that term before Christian nationalist? Um, so let me talk a little bit about that. Um, let's, let's address that. Sometimes you'll hear it called white Christian nationalism. Uh, if, if there's some kind of advocating for supremacy of an ethnicity that's clearly unbiblical. I just want to be really clear on that. Um, from my research of trying to fairly represent every view. Sure. There's crazy sinful people out there. I didn't see that as something that was advocated for as much as, as a label ascribed to that for people who were against it. Um, if. If by what you mean by nationalism means a superior view of your nation over others, then there could potentially be some problems with that. Here's why I say potentially, um nations are not created equal. It's not we're not talking about ethnicities. We're talking like nation states, governments, how you function. Um, it's not an ethnic thing. It's a, it's a, it's a governing thing. And, and hopefully there is a desire to be a nation that's exemplary. Like, look how that nation, uh, governs their people. Look at their laws, look at their society, look at that. You would say you'd have other nations point to that and be like, this is a good form of, of government. Um, and we would want a nation to be exemplary to other nations. Uh, national identity, I would say is not a bad thing depending on your perspective. So in revelation seven, we get this look of every tribe, tongue and nation before the throne of God worshiping Christ. And you have a picture of diversity and unity. So every tribe, tongue, and nation is different. But what are they all doing, worshiping Christ? And that's that. We find our unity in our worship of our same Savior, not in our nation or ethnicity or language, but we have an identity in Christ that supersedes all of those things. But yet there's still a description of those things. Uh, represented in the worship of Christ in a God glorifying way. Like look at all these different types of people worshiping Christ. So that was there for his glory. Now the word for nation in Scripture, uh, is ethne. And that's where we get our word ethnic. So if it's like you're talking about different people groups, then it's a, it's a different than a nation state and a government. Uh, hopefully that adds some confusion to it now. Patriotism is not a bad thing in its proper place. In its proper place. As much as I can tell, people advocating for Christian nationalism are advocating for a strong Christian national identity, particularly through laws that uphold basic biblical morality, um, from a Christian worldview, like laws against gay marriage, laws against, uh, transgenderism, laws against pornography, laws against no fault divorce, things that would champion clear things laid out in Scripture. Uh, they would also be advocating for government leaders who are unashamedly Christian in their life, uh, with the viewpoint of like, if we're going to have a nation that champions Christian values, then you want Christians leading a nation to champion those values. So a lot of them would advocate for, um, Christians to be holding office to, to run that kind of government. Uh, and, and they would be advocating for, uh, a country that is clear and unashamed in its identification with Christianity. Uh, and really sometimes you'll hear like, this is a fight for the heart of America. And what's being talked about is really an identity issue. Who are we? Are we one nation under God? What does that mean? Which God? Who's God? What? What's this value? And I think the intensity behind it has kind of risen a bit with immigration, because if you're assimilating people into a society, what are you assimilating them to? What does it mean to be an American? What are the values that we share? And do Christian values come into play there? And you have this tension around who are we, um, as a country. And now this view, uh, of Christian nationalism often goes hand in hand with, uh, an ecological view of postmillennialism. It doesn't have to, it doesn't always. But it seems to line up with people who are post mill. So I don't know if you guys remember when we went through Daniel and Revelation, we kind of got into some different views on end times. Uh, well, the Postmillennial view believes that, uh, the church will evangelize the world and usher in the coming of Christ. So the world is going to get more and more progressively Christian until Christ comes. And if that's the case, then you could understand the view of like, well, nations and governments are going to become more and more Christianized in that advancement. So you can see how those views go together. So let's illustrate it this way. Government and religion, Christian, there's an overlap in there. Anybody want to put themselves there? Okay. All right. We got a few. All right. Number six religion over government. This is a particular religion, uh, that governs the government. Think of like medieval Roman Catholicism. The Pope said, this person so and so is a heretic, so the state needs to punish him. Like the Pope said that the religious leaders made that ruling. Now the government has to step in and act on that. That is religion over government. We can illustrate it this way. Religion, the big circle government in the small circle. All right. The other one is the verse. This is seven, the last one. This is government over religion. The government governs religion or enforces religion. Think of ancient Babylon. Everybody bow to this statue or the Roman Empire. You need to worship Caesar or modern day like Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan or countries that reinforce Sharia law. Um, this would be government over religion. And it's just illustrated the opposite way. Government, big circle religion fits inside of that. So you got seven different kind of views when it comes to this issue of what's the relationship between religion and the state you guys track with me so far? You got this. Okay. Uh, how many of you are like. I know for certain where I land. I'm confident in it. Somebody like, uh. I won't even ask where you're at, but you're like, I know where I land on that spectrum. Okay. Some of you, somebody like, oh, that's given me a lot to think about. I can, uh, think about some things. Okay, let's, let's work from the spectrum again. It's not perfect. In fact, if you get into it, a lot of people are like, well, maybe I'm a four point five. You're like, what does that mean? And somebody I've talked to somebody like, well, I'm a four point eight. And like, that's, that's interesting. What are those three points like? There's like, it's not a perfect thing, but it gives us a framework to talk about. Um, and I would say this number one and number. Two and six that have embraced each of those, whether it's medieval Roman Catholicism or, um, uh, Amish, just, I would say two and six. Not a good idea, but Amish can be tempting. I'm just on the right day. I'm like, give me a horse and a plow. I mean, I mean, it's escape for a little bit. I could, I could do well with gardening and not showering. So. I already do one of those pretty well. Okay, so that leaves three, four and five, uh, religious neutrality, religious influence and Christian government. And this is where there seems to be most evangelical disagreement. And I would and I would say really, three can seem more pro secular, just wanting religion to stay out completely, although at its best it's also religion just telling government to stay out of their way. It's kind of like, hey, we both got our separate lanes, let's just do our own thing and you do your thing and we'll do our thing. Um, but mostly four and five seem to be more of the conflict among Christians. Um, that seems. And one thing it's like, okay, both four and five are wanting a Christian influence that they're looking at the ways of God or what's good for the flourishing of society. And we want, we want to see that. But, but four and five seem to be the place where there's most, uh, both commonality among the evangelical world in America and conflict of what that looks like. So let's, let's look closer at those two and listen even within their own categories, there is a debate on what it should look like. For example, religious influence. Okay. To what extent? I don't think everybody's saying, yes, the church should influence or be a voice of conscience or speak into issues of society. But to what extent should churches have politicians come speak at church? Should churches pass out voter guides? Should churches spend time addressing political issues? What if it's not really a political issue? It's actually a biblical moral issue, and it happens to be a front and center issue in politics. Well, how often should the church address that, particularly around election time? And where should the church address that on Sunday mornings and podcasts and classes? What should that look like? Should the church be behind community organizing to fight for policies and rally people to vote for causes they think are good and all that can fall under religious influence. But there is a debate among that camp of like, to what extent and to how far? So even under the same banner, it's like, yeah, I'm a what number was that? I'm a four. Is that a four? Yeah, I'm a four. Maybe you're a four. I'm a four. You might find out. We still got a lot to fight about. Like we still got like, I don't know to what extent you want the influence to be this level and you want the influence to be this level. But but there's a shared commonality of there is an agreement that the church should be influential to the state or with view. Five Christian government to an extent. And that's where it gets tricky. Um, because number five is not number six, it's not religion over government. It's a it's an overlap of the two circles. Well, how much do they overlap or like, how much does this circle overlap this circle? And there's a debate even on that. And this can get tricky because you're wondering like, to what extent can you Christianize legally society? Um, sometimes you'll hear people talk about the two tables of the law. Um, so when Moses comes down the mountain with the two tablets representing the Ten Commandments, well, the first part of the Ten Commandments represents a lot of laws that that are between man and God. But the second tablet represents more laws between man and man. So you can make a law like don't murder, right? But do you make a law? Don't blasphemy. Do you make Sabbath laws even on the second tablet? How do you make covet coveting laws? It can get tricky on how you apply it. Is there freedom for other religions in this view? Do you have to be a Christian to hold office? Which kind of Christian and who gets to decide how Christian do you try and make society through law? Now, in church, we often talk about cultural Christianity as a bad thing. And what is meant by that is just you go through the motions like you're not. You're not really a follower of Jesus. You just kind of you come to church, you try to be a good person. Um, but when it comes to eternity, you're missing it. Um, and as a church, we see that as a bad. We see that rightfully as a bad thing. We don't want to just promote cultural Christianity and give people a false sense of, of comfort. Our job is to make disciples and preach the gospel. Um, so when we look at cultural Christianity, there's certainly a negative about it, but is there a positive about a culture of Christians? And is there a way that we should champion to see culture more Christian? Um, you could argue more Christian values in society would be a good thing. If there was more laws that reflect the laws of God, or a Christian culture, you could argue is better than a secular culture. Recently, the famous atheist Richard Dawkins, very outspoken atheist, advocated for cultural Christianity. He's like, even though I don't believe in God, I think it's best for society. So some people say, I don't I don't believe in God, but but there's a benefit to a culture that practices. Well, like John Adams put it, a moral and religious people. Um, one way to think about it is asking this. You gotta put your thinking cap on for this one. Is Christian always a noun or can it be an adjective? Here's what I mean by like a noun. You're like, you're talking about a person. This person is a Christian. And that's how we often use it. But can Christian be an adjective? For example, you have a Christian home. It may not mean that everybody in the home is a born again Christian, but you're saying, hey, as for me and my house, we serve the Lord, we go to church, we do this, we don't do this. This is how we act. This is what we do. And you say, this is a Christian home, or can you have a Christian school where you recognize not everybody in this school is going to heaven. Not everybody is born again, regenerate person. But if you come to this school, we pray in the morning, we teach the Bible, we we treat each other this way. Here's our rules and they reflect Christian values. And if you can have a Christian home and you can have a Christian school, can you have a Christian nation where you say like, we're not saying everybody in this nation is a Christian, but as this nation, we're one nation under God, and here's our laws and here's our policies. And then to what extent? See how it gets complicated. Are we having fun yet? Oh, yeah. Uh. And do we believe that God still blesses nations that honor him? This is Psalm thirty three twelve. Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, the people whom he has chosen as his heritage. Now, is that just for the nation of Israel, or is that a principle that applies to any nation that acknowledges God and practices his ways to seek his blessing? So there's even some interpretations there. Here's a way to think about it. We are Christians. If you're here tonight because you're just curious and you wouldn't call yourself a Christian, you're in a church and we're Christians as a group. We believe the ways of God are best for the flourishing of people and society. So do we want a Christian nation or do we want a nation of Christians? You might be like, well, is that semantics? Not not really. Do we want to put it this way? Do we want Christianity in law or do we want Christianity in culture? And you're like, does it have to be one or the other? Well, one is the job of the government and one is the job of the church. The church doesn't make laws. The church makes disciples. And it can seem like or I would say, if you have a culture of Christians, do you need Christian laws? Or was our government established for a society or a culture that was moral and religious? And that's the people who was meant to serve. And if you lose a morality and a religion in your culture Now you start to feel like maybe we need some laws. And it can seem to me like this desire for more Christian laws is a reaction to the growing secularization of our country. Of saying, wait a minute, time out. We don't like this. We've lost our Christian culture. So can we make some laws? It can kind of be like, if your parenting a household and you got a bunch of kids and your kids are unruly, you're like, we need to make some rules. Like they're out of control. But if your kids are well behaved, I probably have less rules. Like they understand the culture. And when we look at the culture of America can seem like we see this growing secularization and this reaction panic of like, that's not who we want to be. That's not what we used to value. And now we need some more laws to kind of reestablish those values. But I would say the The problem with the growing secularization of our culture is a church failure, not a government failure. And we shouldn't ask the government to fix what the church broke. We can push into that a little bit more. I am not trying to say stay out of politics, though. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is we just need to clarify what is the front lines of this battle. Because here's what I think is happening right now in our cultural moment. Politics have always been contentious, but the growing secularization and cultural depravity has kind of sounded an alarm to a sleeping, conservative, Christian identifying group of people that are like, wait a second, when did this? Like, we got men playing in women's sports. We got, you know, I sent my daughter to school and she learns a heretical view of the Trinity. Like what? What is going on here? And you're just kind of like, how did we get here? And there's this growing frustration of the secularization in America. Um, and we see the relics of a culture that embraced religion. You know, we, we see those on our money in our songs and the Pledge of Allegiance. Like we see that. And not just religion, particularly Protestant Christianity. America has a strong Protestant heritage, even if it wasn't codified in law. It existed strongly in culture. In fact, Catholic schools or excuse me, Catholics established parochial schools not because public schools were too secular, but because public schools were too Protestant. The Bible was the main textbook. You had prayer in school, not because it was a law. It was a culture. It was a it was just how you function because it was a culture. and now it feels like, boy, we've we've gone way far the other way. And any thought of Christianity and public society is met with this strict separation view. Like, you can't do that. Like don't, don't mix the two. And we're seeing a group of people that I would say are morally conservative and Christian, identifying people rising up and asking, well, we're being told we're not supposed to make society more Christian by law, but but how secular do we let society come by law when it feels like we're not just talking about laws on taxation and national policy and, um, Medicare or just the health care system or roads like we're talking about marriage and gender and biblical morality and the sanctity of life. And it feels like these laws are being forced in a secular. I talked to somebody today that's like, I can't access my fifteen year old's medical charts because as a parent, I'm told that they need to protect kids from parents by law. So you have this growing frustration of like, I'm being told we're not supposed to make or society Christian or more Christian by laws, but yet I'm watching society become more secular by law. So you have this tension, this culture war that's brewing now. Hopefully, as Christians, we would all agree that God's ways are best for people, that God's ways are the best for the thriving and flourishing of society. But the question is still, how do you think the relationship between the church and state should be? Let's say you're a four and you believe in Christian influence and you speak into society. You speak into those things. You make disciples. What happens if you're effective? Do you find yourself in a world of a five like you just made disciples, but now you got more disciples in your community and more of those disciples are running for office, and more of those disciples find themselves in government positions. And then those disciples start making laws and policies based on their faith. Are you for that or are you against that? If those LA are brought to a vote, how do you find yourself voting? If there's laws against gay marriage, there's laws against pornography. If there were a law against no fault divorce, if there was laws against drug use. Like do you find yourself voting for those or is there a point where society would get too Christian for you? Or you'd be like, okay, no, more like there's a lane and we must not cross it. So theologically, we know that we can't make people Christian through the law, right? Amen. Yeah. Okay. But let's not forget God's people functioned as a nation with God's laws, and it didn't go great. They had the law of Moses. They had the civil law. They had the ceremonial law, the religious laws, the sacrificial. They had the leaders. They had their nation. Um, it was a nation led by God, but they rebelled. They weren't faithful. And they were sent into captivity. And when Judah went into captivity, there was a mission strategy shift in God's redemptive plan. Now, I don't think God didn't call an audible like this was part of his progressive unfolding plan of redemption. This isn't catching by surprise. This is kind of revealing God's plans and times. But when you read through Scripture and Judah gets sent into captivity, God makes some proclamations that seem to show this shift. Um, and this is what he says through the prophet Jeremiah. Jeremiah twenty nine thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel, to all the exiles whom I have sent into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon. Here's his instructions. Build houses and live in them. Plant gardens, and eat their produce. Take wives and have sons and daughters. Take wives for your sons and your daughters in marriage, that they may bear sons and daughters. Multiply there and do not decrease. But seek the welfare of the city where I have sent you into exile, and pray to the Lord on its behalf. For in its welfare you will find your welfare. For thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel. Do not let your prophets and your diviners who are among you deceive you, and do not listen to the dreams they dream, for it is a lie that they are prophesying to you in my name. I did not send them, declares the Lord. Now that begs the question, what were the prophets saying? Well, with the prophets were telling them is we're going to regain national power, like we're going to be back in Israel. It's going to be restored. It's going to be awesome. But when God tells them your exiles get comfortable. Plant a garden, get married, raise a family. Marry off your kids. Now, in seventy years, they are allowed to go back, but not to national power. This exile, reality and language continues through the New Testament and becomes language for believers. This is first Peter, but you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy what nation? A people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you are not a people, but now you are God's people. Once you have not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles, to abstain from the passions of the flesh which wage war against your soul. Keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God in the day of visitation. So which is really similar to the instructions in Jeremiah twenty nine four and nine. He's saying, hey, I'm sending you to live among a pagan world. Watch your conduct. Represent me. Have families. Show them something different. Let your good works be seen. Basically reach the world by being different among it. And in the midst of this, God's talking about his new covenant. In fact, a few chapters later in Jeremiah thirty one, he says this behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when they took them by the hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt. My covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord. I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor, and each his brother, saying, know the Lord, for they shall all know me from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and will remember their sins no more. So God is telling these exiled people, I'm going to do a special work through people's hearts. I'm going to change individuals, and those individuals are going to live among lost people, and they're going to be a light for me. They're going to be salt for me. And this is the new covenant of Christ and his blood in the gospel. And now we are ambassadors for Christ. And that language is not accidental because an ambassador represents a foreign kingdom that goes into a foreign land to make terms of surrender. Think of a warring two warring countries. An ambassador will go to one and say, I have terms for your surrender. My king is a good king and he will win. But if you surrender to him, you can live under his good rule forever and enjoy his goodness. If you don't, he will wipe you out. That's basically our message to the world. We are ambassadors for Christ. Our King is coming back. He will win. There is a time now where you can repent and we implore you, take the deal. Be reconciled to God that he's not counting our sins against us in Christ Jesus. Now listen. We need a spiritual cure, not a political one. Laws don't change hearts, nor does Christianity need the right government to thrive. It needs devoted followers. In Matthew sixteen, Jesus says, I will build my church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. And the Church of Jesus Christ throughout the centuries has thrived and grown in all types of political climates. It wins every time governments rise and governments fall. The church is here, and the church continues to thrive because Jesus said, I will build it. And he meant he meant it. It will happen. So we don't. Or we put our hope in discipleship, gospel proclamation, and church strengthening, and also secondarily, the blessing of living in a country where we can voice our vote and try to shape and influence our government. So I'm for those things, but we need to know the limits of government so we don't put too much hope in it. And we can tend to fall into putting too much hope in it. Same in Jesus day. What did they want Jesus to do? Overthrow Rome. Come fix these immediate problems. And Jesus had a bigger mission in mind, and we need to keep the greater mission in mind. And it's not an either or. It's a both. And but it is a primary secondary. And a lot of times the issue is how much should the church get involved in political issues? Well, I think churches should help people think biblically, biblically about everything. That's discipleship. But the church is not a pawn to be used in a political game. The church should not succumb to political pressure. You need to talk about this to help us win. Who's us? We need to be careful. Um. Nor is the main focus of the church National health. I think national health is a secondary blessing of disciple making. But it's not the ambition of the church. Politics seems to be ultimate right now. You know what I mean by that? It's like this. This is where it's at. And everything has got to be political. And there's a political alarmist. Like I always say, um, you get climate alarmist, right? If we don't do something now, Florida's going to be underwater in five years, right? You just kind of get this extremist climate alarmist. And I think there's political alarmist. If we don't get this person in office or this person out of office or this party here, then it's just over. I'm like, what? I think God's still on the throne, and we can't buy into that worldview. And my concern is that either of you can seek to hijack the mission of the church for something secondary. Now, I don't think the church should be afraid of the far reaching impact that gospel proclamation and discipleship can have. Like next week, we're going to continue on in acts nineteen, and you're going to see this riot because gospel proclamation affected the local economy. People stopped buying idols and these silversmiths got mad. Right. You're hurting my business. And if we make disciples, I hope the casino feels it. I hope strip clubs go out of business like I hope that's a result of disciple making because you're producing people who are making different choices. But the way that you go about it is discipleship. We must stay focused on our primary mission. As second Timothy two four says, we don't. A soldier does not get entangled in civilian pursuits. So let me give you some principles that our elders spent some time talking about this issue and we said there's some there's there's probably diversity even among our elder team when it comes into like, well, how much influence and what this and where do you exactly land? And there's freedom for some of that diversity. But we wrote some principles that we all agree on and let me share them with you. Number one, the kingdom of God is wholly separate from any earthly kingdom and political structure. Feel free to. Amen. If you want the kingdom of God and the return of Christ is not dependent on any earthly kingdom or political structure. The Church of Jesus Christ must stay separate and distinct from any earthly kingdom or political structure. The Church of Jesus Christ, stewarding the wisdom of God, serves as a conscience to all earthly kingdoms and political structures. Structures through proclaiming the Word of God to the world. Christians should embrace the privilege to vote and be active, biblically guided voters without placing their hope in government. God is sovereign over all governments and political structures, sometimes for our good and sometimes for our judgment. Christians believe that God's ways are what is best for the flourishing of human beings, and therefore should work to see greater expressions of God's ways lived out in society. Celebrating not only the increase of disciples on earth, but also the increase of disciples and leadership capacities within society, promoting those ways of God. In light of the other principles, we think those are pretty good guiding principles in this issue. Um, and let me kind of end with two pastoral concerns for us in this cultural moment. One, for those of you that would identify more with number five, Christian government, here's my caution. For some, not all, but for some it can seem like a new type of prosperity gospel. Do you know what I mean by that? Prosperity gospel talks about, um, God is the one who's going to bless you with wealth and health and prosperity. But God is just seen as a means to those ends. I'm not really about God. I'm about prosperity, and God exists to help me get that. And God has treated as not the prize, but a means to another prize. And sometimes the concern with Christian nationalism is God is not my prize. A restored America, whatever that is, is my prize. And God is just a means to get me to that. And God is not a means to anything. He's the prize himself. So don't lose sight of that. We are called to be faithful through anything, any government. Understanding that often persecution is the best context for ministry. We don't always like to think about that. But the church often even today, thrives under persecution. And the first three hundred years of the church, you wonder, like, how did Christianity go from eleven scared guys on a hill to the main religion of Rome in three hundred years as a persecuted group of people? Because they were devoted followers who gave their lives for the gospel and it exploded under persecution. But when Constantine blessed Christianity as the official religion of Rome, the church shrank. It didn't grow. It began to go downhill. And two, I think this represents a lot of us in the room. I think for a lot of us, we're tired of having secularism and sinful values shoved down our throats. Every time we turn on the TV? Every time we turn on the radio. Every time we hear what's happening in our society. We're just tired of a secular, sinful culture being shoved at us all the time. And if you don't agree with this, you're canceled. And it's just frustrating. And the danger or the pastoral concern I want to give you is out of anger and frustration. We start seeing other people as the enemy and not the mission field, and we're just mad at people we should be reaching. We're just angry, maybe even rightfully so. But our disposition changes from I want something for you and my gospel is what you need, and we lose that. I want that to happen. So I don't know how long I took That long. Um. Let's do what we're commanded to, and we're going to pray for our nation. We're going to pray for our leaders. Um, I'm going to lead us in that time of prayer, and then we'll have time for a few questions, um, afterwards. Sound good? Okay. Uh, why don't you bow your heads? And I'm going to give us some things to pray about. And I just want you to pray for him right there in your seat. Um, let's let's pray for our government leaders, both local and national, right now. Spend some time. You know him by name. You've been getting text messages from him all the time. Let's pray for them. We spend some time praying right now for revival in our city and our community. Did you spend some time praying for revival in our nation that we would turn to God in repentance? Would you pray for Christians all throughout our nation that they would have wisdom and biblical worldview in their voting and elections. Would you pray for the unity of our church when politics can be such a divisive thing that we would be united in the gospel of Jesus? Father, we are so thankful for the privilege to live in a country where we gather freely. We're thankful for, um, not having to hide and sneak around to gather and profess your name. I pray that in this freedom you would guard us against complacency. And lukewarmness. That we would not use our freedom as permission for spiritual laziness. I pray that you would revive your church in this nation to be faithful to your word and to be on your mission, and that we would be a light that is not put under a basket, but shines bright for you. I pray that no matter who is in office, your people in this country would be faithful representing you in all things. I pray for a peace that transcends understanding, that we would not put our hope in chariots and world powers, but in you, knowing that you will come with your kingdom and make all things new. We pray this in the name of our Savior and our King Jesus Christ. And all God's people said, Amen. Alright, let's take fifteen minutes. Uh, if you want, if you have a question, ten minutes, you're going to take ten minutes. Again, I'm not going to pretend to be an extrovert, but I'll try to be a good pastor. And if it's like, man, I don't. I feel like we need music. So you wrote down those principles that the elders agreed on. What's that? You wrote down those principles that the elders had agreed on at the very end. Uh huh. Do those map onto any of the models? Because it seemed like you could kind of see ingredients of several. Yeah, we did not, like, say, where do we fall on that spectrum? We just said, what are principles that, um, we're going to hold to? And I think those principles could be held to in, uh, in. four and five and probably some of three, uh, in that taxonomy. Um, we weren't trying to like narrowly define, we were just saying like, hey, what are some unifying things where it's like, we're going to hold our ground here. Like this is what we believe firmly in. And there's some, there's some flexibility on purpose within that. That's a good question. Ian. We got one. This is two to zero. Ian over here. Right in the middle. That's going to be tough to get to. I was wondering if you have any scriptural references that you based those principles on the seven views. No. The church's principles. I was wondering if you have any scriptural references that you use to come upon those. Um, yeah, it would be probably a more of an understanding of what is the narrative of Scripture and what is it teaching us, um, to do that, but I can get, um, why don't I, we'll do an article and I'll, I'll attach some scripture to each of those. Let me write that down. Good. Yes. Given the fact that so many of us have, uh, family that's split and split severely over current politics. And when you ask us to raise our hand, it was a pretty wide swath. Mhm. Knowing what you have studied and what you've taught us this evening, can you give us some insight on how to begin to bring peace back into broken families? Yeah. Yeah. I think let me say let me say this first. I'm seeing. I just prayed with a lady this morning. Um. I hear more and more about younger people who are cutting off their parents that if you don't think like this, then I don't want anything to do with you. Um, let's not be those people. We're not here to sever relationships. We're here to be ambassadors of peace and bring as much as possible to live in harmony with everybody. Be at peace with everybody. And and Paul says that as much as possible, because it's not all dependent on us. But let's be people who it's like we're not cutting people off. And if it's like, well, this relationship is toxic, which one isn't? We're sinners and we bear with one another. We forgive one another. We let's practice those type of relationship. So I, I would, um, maintain emotional peace when we talk about politics. Um, if that's a topic that you guys talk about as family, um, I would exemplify care for the individual. Um, be good question. What do you think? Why do you think that how's it going for you in that? Like what? Like engage in um, really seeking to understand in that, but um, there may be sad situations where there is a fractured relationship. I just hope that we don't initiate that. Yeah. Um, in some of our extended family issues, the number one problem is the one issue voters. And not to say that that's not an important issue. My goodness. Yeah, but there are fifteen hundred other really important issues. How do you address that to those that you love that that is just a hard line and they refuse to go past that about anything else. Um, well, I want us to think biblically about everything. So I would say, what issues do you care about? Let's talk. What is the Bible? How does the Bible direct us that? So I would engage in a lot of issues. I do think though that, um, most anybody would be a one issue voter depending on what that one issue was. Um, and if we were in a different time period and there was somebody who I didn't like a lot of their policies, but they were the one politician to want to abolish slavery. I'm with them, you know, and if you got one that says, hey, let's not kill babies, let's, let's do that. Uh, not all issues are equal. They're not morally equivalent. Um, so I, I would think that one issue is a really big issue, but I also want to engage in all the issues. And I understand like, yeah, there's a lot of complexities and no one party perfectly represents the laws of God. So let's have good robust dialogue in that. It's a good question, pastor. Um, where do you feel? Over here in front of you? Where do you feel our country is at now as far as your I still don't know where I'm looking. Oh, okay. Sorry. I'm sorry. Where do you feel our country is at now? And as far as your diagram, our country. Yeah. I think there's a lot of different views. I mean, there's all of those views are probably represented in our country. Like what do I think the most dominant view is? Um. You put them up there again. Uh, I think between a two and a three. No no no. I'm sorry. Between a if you take two out of there, I think you see one and and three of growing secularization does not have a favorable view towards religion. Um, three could be like we see the benefit of religion. Stay out of, stay out of our way, do your thing. But we think it's good for society. I see more and more, uh, religious views are seen as antithetical to the ambitions of a secular viewpoint. Um, so I see that in the growing secularization and I'm an expert. I don't know, uh, we got time for a couple more. Are you headed somewhere? I thought I saw a hand over here. Did they. Did they retract? Did you retract? Someone retracted a retracted a question. Jackson. You talked about wanting to create a cultural, uh, Christianity over politics. And what do you think as we support, uh, certain candidates, should we, um, think about moral character over policy? Or do you think that, um, are those. Can we compete with those two or those should be equally weighed. Um, what would you think about that? Like how do we look at the moral character of, of candidates? Right. So if we want to create a culture of Christianity, at what point do we say, I like the, the moral, um, the morality or the moral character of this person over there, uh, Policies that I like or dislike. It's interesting how our. Party loyalty often clouds our thing. I mean, when, uh, Clinton had an affair with Monica Lewinsky. It's like, get him out of office. And then when Trump has talked about some pretty grotesque things in his life, it's like, oh, well, we're not hiring a pastor in chief, just a I would say this. Um, as Christians, we should rightfully critique immorality and bad character wherever we see it, no matter who it is. Um, nobody, we're not going to ignore things just to advance something. Let's if it's wrong, it's wrong. And let's say it, um, gospel integrity depends on it. Um, and when it comes to voting, we're looking at policy to what policies are you going to try to implement? So I say, yeah, character matters, but you're going to have to weigh like, um, I would, I would look for somebody who's going to champion policies more than, oh, this person's a really nice guy, but he's going to champion policies that I think undermine the word of God. But that doesn't say it doesn't matter and we shouldn't talk about it. I think we should talk about it. That's a good question. Last question. Was there one other you kind of answered my question. But how do you handle the increase of influence of Islam in our government and how, as Christians, do we stand up against that? Um, we preach the gospel and make disciples. Yeah. You kind of answered. Yeah. Previous question. Yeah. We, we preach the gospel and we make disciples. Um, and we plant churches And we do it more and more and more and more. Okay. Um, let me pray. And we're going to end with some worship guys. Thanks for just being a, a great group of people that can wade into some complex waters. And I hope even if you're like, boy, I don't agree with this. I don't agree with this. I hope we're just Bible people. Let's just go to the Bible, let's read the Bible, let's be shaped by God's Word, and we can have our conversations around the Bible. Amen. Amen. Father, thanks for your word that it is a light unto our path and we want to walk on that path. So would you guide us? Would you give us wisdom from above? Uh. Would you direct us to represent you well? Uh, not just in how we vote, but how we live and how we treat each other and how we treat others. Uh, that we would honor and please you. And we pray in the name of Jesus who loves us and loved us first. And we're so thankful for that grace in his name, Amen.